Red's Debate: Communism/Socialism, Yay or Nay

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Col. Redshirt

Point out, if you will, a goverment funded, or owned system that has been helpful, or lasted?

Department of Agriculture (USDA)
Department of Commerce (DoC)
Department of Education (ED)
Department of Energy (DoE)
Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
Department of the Interior (DoI)
Department of Justice (DoJ)
Department of Labor (DoL)
Department of Transportation (DoT)
Department of the Treasury
Department of Veteran Affairs (VA)
Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA)
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)
Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board (CSB)
U.S. Commission on Civil Rights (USCCR)
Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC)
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
U.S. Copyright Office
Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board (DNFSB)
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
Federal Election Commission (FEC)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
U.S. Fire Administration (USFA)
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
Federal Technology Service (FTS)
Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
Social Security Administration (SSA)
Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)

[Col. Redshirt]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Department of Agriculture (USDA)
Department of Commerce (DoC)
Department of Education (ED)
Department of Energy (DoE)
Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
Department of the Interior (DoI)
Department of Justice (DoJ)
Department of Labor (DoL)
Department of Transportation (DoT)
Department of the Treasury
Department of Veteran Affairs (VA)
Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA)
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)
Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board (CSB)
U.S. Commission on Civil Rights (USCCR)
Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC)
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
U.S. Copyright Office
Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board (DNFSB)
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
Federal Election Commission (FEC)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
U.S. Fire Administration (USFA)
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
Federal Technology Service (FTS)
Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
Social Security Administration (SSA)
Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)

I should have elaborated, we were speaking mainly of the economy.

[xxxRetsopmi]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Department of Agriculture (USDA)-A gimmick to regulate the pricing of farmed goods
Department of Commerce (DoC)
Department of Education (ED) Our education system is the worst of all 1st world countries
Department of Energy (DoE)
Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) This is funny. Have you ever dealt with this department before?
Department of the Interior (DoI)
Department of Justice (DoJ) Yea cause the DoJ and every other legal department don't fight over who gets the rights to what. They really help.
Department of Labor (DoL) Terrible departments like this are the reason Unions are becoming more and more popular.
Department of Transportation (DoT)
Department of the Treasury
Department of Veteran Affairs (VA) The VA is a joke. Once you are out expect very little good treatment from this group.
Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) Same as above
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) There is a reason the space race has become a private war. A private company will make it to the moon again long before NASA gets there.
Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board (CSB)
U.S. Commission on Civil Rights (USCCR)
Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC)
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
U.S. Copyright Office
Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board (DNFSB)
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) Does nothing but give people the false hope their money is protected.
Federal Election Commission (FEC)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
U.S. Fire Administration (USFA)
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
Federal Technology Service (FTS)
Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
Social Security Administration (SSA) Yea cause this isn't going bankrupt and will be done with in the next 20 years or so.
Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)

The ones I bold responded to are the only ones I actually have had any dealing with. The others I haven't ever dealt with but I would assume they have the same glaring holes as the ones pointed out.

[Col. Redshirt]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Ok, so let's privatize EVERYTHING except the military.

We'll let the schools, fire departments, local police, infrastructure, regulations (building codes, environmental, food, economic, FCC, safety, etc), economic regulation/backing, health care, labor, and ANYTHING else not related to protection of the country or enforcing federal law fall into the private sector. That should work out REAL well for us, just like it does in other countries.

I wonder if you have followed that cliche conservative thought to the logical end. Have you been to countries where the government isn't involved in regulation of any kind?

Calm down there, obviously, there is a balance that needs to be achieved; of course the "government" should be "in charge” of Law enforcement, and fire fighting etc. I put the words in quotations, because the government is owned by the people, not the other way around. Once a government gets it into their heads that they are in control, there is a big problem.

On the other hand, stuff like health care, schools etc. should remain in the private sector. As we discussed earlier, private schools and hospitals always have better quality than government "owned" ones.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

My friends from Canada and the UK always get a kick out of reading these quotes from Americans.

I, myself, have roots in Canada, and know people who have had personal experiences with the poor quality of the "Socialist" healthcare. One of these people had to get treatment for cancer from the United States, because the wait was too long in Canada.

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

The ones I bold responded to are the only ones I actually have had any dealing with. The others I haven't ever dealt with but I would assume they have the same glaring holes as the ones pointed out.

Nice points.
--------------------

Vivacia: I thought heard a Canadian

[Vivacia]

Originally Posted by Col. Redshirt

Vivacia: I thought heard a Canadian

Your off by one generation


Don't be hatin' on the FDIC, it is my understanding that no one has lost a $ of FDIC insured money since its creation.

In terms of Social Security; it is broken/will be broken due to the shift in population demographic. Instead of looking like

it looks more like

The current problems can be blamed on politicians rather then government as a whole. My thoughts are that people are idiots and people electing people by and large produces idiots tenfold.

[Col. Redshirt]

Originally Posted by Vivacia

Your off by one generation

Hmm...Same here

Originally Posted by Vivacia

In terms of Social Security; it is broken/will be broken due to the shift in population demographic.

The current problems can be blamed on politicians rather then government as a whole. My thoughts are that people are idiots and people electing people by and large produces idiots tenfold.

To a degree, you are correct, about both things. But, if not through election, how else would you have leaders put into power? All we can do is hope that a man steps forward that is worthy of election.

[xxxRetsopmi]

Originally Posted by Vivacia

Your off by one generation


Don't be hatin' on the FDIC, it is my understanding that no one has lost a $ of FDIC insured money since its creation.

In terms of Social Security; it is broken/will be broken due to the shift in population demographic. Instead of looking like
[IMG tags automatically removed, click here for image]
it looks more like
[IMG tags automatically removed, click here for image]
The current problems can be blamed on politicians rather then government as a whole. My thoughts are that people are idiots and people electing people by and large produces idiots tenfold.

The FDIC is terrible. It only covers 250,000 max. So yea it's great for the average man but anyone with sizeable savings is screwed.

As for SS it is a bad setup from day one. There is no reason someone working now should be paying for the SS of someone retired. You should get what you pay into it.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

The ones I bold responded to are the only ones I actually have had any dealing with. The others I haven't ever dealt with but I would assume they have the same glaring holes as the ones pointed out.

Before I dive into each of those responses, let me ask you this. Is it better to have someone looking after things like the VA, FDIC (some amount of financial security), labor (breaks, wages, fairness), or have no one doing these things (the private sector wouldn't touch any of this stuff, and would actually love to do away with a lot of it)?

I'll stick with "not perfect" over "no regulatory agencies, financial security, fairness in labor, or care for our vets", thanks.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Col. Redshirt

Calm down there, obviously, there is a balance that needs to be achieved; of course the "government" should be "in charge” of Law enforcement, and fire fighting etc. I put the words in quotations, because the government is owned by the people, not the other way around. Once a government gets it into their heads that they are in control, there is a big problem.

On the other hand, stuff like health care, schools etc. should remain in the private sector. As we discussed earlier, private schools and hospitals always have better quality than government "owned" ones.

"Calm down there, obviously, there is a balance that needs to be achieved" - There is no room for "balance" when someone spouts the typical "keep the government outta ma life! They are ONLY here for protection." nonsense.

The government IS in charge. That's the way democracy and leadership work. WE elect leaders at the local and federal level, and THEY are "in charge". Saying the people are "in charge" is like saying you are in charge of Nike because you hold Nike stock. The business is responsible to the shareholders, yes, but you are not in charge of what Nike does for the most part.

Originally Posted by Col. Redshirt

I should have elaborated, we were speaking mainly of the economy.

There could not be a better case for governmental involvement than the economy. The capitalistic economy, unregulated in any way, is a recipe for absolute meltdown (like we've seen). Default credit swaps, 100-1000:1 debt rations, mortgage based securities with unknown value, monopolies, price fixing, insider trading, and short selling. That is what you get sans regulation, and it ain't pretty. The government got involved in those things for a reason.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

The FDIC is terrible. It only covers 250,000 max. So yea it's great for the average man but anyone with sizeable savings is screwed.

As for SS it is a bad setup from day one. There is no reason someone working now should be paying for the SS of someone retired. You should get what you pay into it.

The FDIC is "terrible" because someone with more than 250k will have to spread their wealth around different places to be insured? Wow. Here I thought that most Americans didn't have more than 250k in the bank, and the FDIC kept us from having things like bank runs, or being taken advantage of by shady bankers...

[Col. Redshirt]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

"Calm down there, obviously, there is a balance that needs to be achieved" - There is no room for "balance" when someone spouts the typical "keep the government outta ma life! They are ONLY here for protection." nonsense.

The government IS in charge. That's the way democracy and leadership work. WE elect leaders at the local and federal level, and THEY are "in charge". Saying the people are "in charge" is like saying you are in charge of Nike because you hold Nike stock. The business is responsible to the shareholders, yes, but you are not in charge of what Nike does for the most part.

You see, you are still living in a world where people are "good". The government is of the people (Comprised of private citizens), for the people, and owned by the people.

Having checks and balances is the only way to insure that a government or leader does not get corrupted by power.

[xxxRetsopmi]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Before I dive into each of those responses, let me ask you this. Is it better to have someone looking after things like the VA, FDIC (some amount of financial security), labor (breaks, wages, fairness), or have no one doing these things (the private sector wouldn't touch any of this stuff, and would actually love to do away with a lot of it)?

I'll stick with "not perfect" over "no regulatory agencies, financial security, fairness in labor, or care for our vets", thanks.

There are *someones* looking after these things.

Jobs are now being smart enough to do Unions. The FDIC is so worthless that most Credit Unions, and some banks are now offering other things to cover more then what the FDIC does.

Our vets get NO care. If you think they do you are very mistaken. My father who was a vet from 2 wars developed medical complications due to the war. It took 9 months and help from Oregons Governor to get him any sort of help and coverage from his vet benefits.

[xxxRetsopmi]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

The FDIC is "terrible" because someone with more than 250k will have to spread their wealth around different places to be insured? Wow. Here I thought that most Americans didn't have more than 250k in the bank, and the FDIC kept us from having things like bank runs, or being taken advantage of by shady bankers...

No you are told that the FDIC is there to cover you. The reality it is there to help the banks know they will never have to worry about more then 250,000. Per person. It is their way out.

Also the FDIC in no way protect against shady bankers. It is 250k. The wealthy have way more then 250k in any given bank at any given time. A shady banker could still run off with the cash. It is nothing more then insurance.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

There are *someones* looking after these things.

Jobs are now being smart enough to do Unions. The FDIC is so worthless that most Credit Unions, and some banks are now offering other things to cover more then what the FDIC does.

Our vets get NO care. If you think they do you are very mistaken. My father who was a vet from 2 wars developed medical complications due to the war. It took 9 months and help from Oregons Governor to get him any sort of help and coverage from his vet benefits.

Really? Who outside of the government provides economic regulation? Vet benefits? Labor regulations for ALL?

And lol, what good is it to have a bank offer more coverage than the FDIC, when they can simply chapter 11 and default?

Vets get NO care? Funny that the vets in my family disagree.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

It is nothing more then insurance.

Umm... obviously?

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Col. Redshirt

You see, you are still living in a world where people are "good". The government is of the people (Comprised of private citizens), for the people, and owned by the people.

Having checks and balances is the only way to insure that a government or leader does not get corrupted by power.

Did I argue against checks and balances somewhere? Yes, yes, the government is of, for and by the people. Got it.

So do you think the government should be involved in activities outside of national defense and law enforcement?

[Col. Redshirt]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Did I argue against checks and balances somewhere? Yes, yes, the government is of, for and by the people. Got it.

So do you think the government should be involved in activities outside of national defense and law enforcement?

I think that it needs to go both ways. If the people don't watch the government, it will do something stupid, and vice versa. The government must watch over its citizens with law enforcement and guidelines to follow; but if the government becomes too powerful, the citizens must step in the correct. Checks and balances.

[xxxRetsopmi]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Really? Who outside of the government provides economic regulation? Vet benefits? Labor regulations for ALL?

And lol, what good is it to have a bank offer more coverage than the FDIC, when they can simply chapter 11 and default?

Vets get NO care? Funny that the vets in my family disagree.

Who inside the government provide economic regulation? No one. The economy is regulated by the biggest companies around. All the government agencies do are stand around and twiddle their thumbs.

A bank that offers more coverage that is backed by the Federal Reserve is better then the standard FDIC crap insurance most banks offer the normal people of the world. The FDIC is nothing more then a security blanket for the poor. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy to think they are insured.

Vets do get NO care for anything above and beyond basic service. When is the last time one of your "family vets" had anything more then a common cold to get taken care of? It also entertains me that you either make up your family vets opinions. I highly doubt you turned around and called them in the 40mins to actually get their opinion.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Umm... obviously?

Way to pull out the last part of the quote and try and use it out of context. the reality is exactly how I put it in the whole quote. It doesn't nothing to keep bad things from happening. You also aren't guaranteed the FDIC will actually pay your money back.

Go troll another post. We were doing fine having a conversation before you came in. You are in here for nothing but arguments or entertainment.

[Col. Redshirt]

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

Way to pull out the last part of the quote and try and use it out of context. the reality is exactly how I put it in the whole quote. It doesn't nothing to keep bad things from happening. You also aren't guaranteed the FDIC will actually pay your money back.

Go troll another post. We were doing fine having a conversation before you came in. You are in here for nothing but arguments or entertainment.

Do I sense a flame war? Ciaran you have triple posted a couple times now, and, as Retsopmi pointed out, are taking quotes out of context. If you wish to continue, please calm down.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

Who inside the government provide economic regulation? No one. The economy is regulated by the biggest companies around. All the government agencies do are stand around and twiddle their thumbs..

Ahh ok, gotcha. LOL. /tinfoil

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

Vets do get NO care for anything above and beyond basic service. When is the last time one of your "family vets" had anything more then a common cold to get taken care of? It also entertains me that you either make up your family vets opinions. I highly doubt you turned around and called them in the 40mins to actually get their opinion.

I've talked MANY times about the quality of care Vets in my family get, especially since health care has been such a hot button issue for the last 6+ months, and the VA is government run healthcare. No, I didn't call anyone in the last few hours to re-poll them. Thanks for your concern though!

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

Go troll another post. We were doing fine having a conversation before you came in. You are in here for nothing but arguments or entertainment

Why don't you go take a long walk? I haven't insulted anyone, I've only expressed an opinion on the matter in a thread with "debate" in the title.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Col. Redshirt

Do I sense a flame war? Ciaran you have triple posted a couple times now, and, as Retsopmi pointed out, are taking quotes out of context. If you wish to continue, please calm down.

I think he's a complete tool, and the feeling is mutual.

He's still annoyed that I was right all along about the future of the game, tbh.

[Col. Redshirt]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I think he's a complete tool, and the feeling is mutual.

He's still annoyed that I was right all along about the future of the game, tbh.

Ah, I see. I will have to see what he says, but don't make it personal.

Offtopic: So you are a Naysayer for the game then?

[xxxRetsopmi]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Ahh ok, gotcha. LOL. /tinfoil

How is it tin foil? You have yet to show how these agencies do anything other then stand around. It's big companies that run our economy.



I've talked MANY times about the quality of care Vets in my family get, especially since health care has been such a hot button issue for the last 6+ months, and the VA is government run healthcare. No, I didn't call anyone in the last few hours to re-poll them. Thanks for your concern though!

As I said above. What big health care are they getting other then random normal doctor appointments? Dodging the topic doesn't count as a deffense.



Why don't you go take a long walk? I haven't insulted anyone, I've only expressed an opinion on the matter in a thread with "debate" in the title.

Who said anything about insulting? I said trolling. While you may have expressed an opinion. The continuation of your post aren't bringing anything to the table. You are merely arguing. Quoting things out of context, one line responses, and other things that are nothing more then trolling. If you want to put effort into it then by all means do so. If not just walk away from the thread.

[xxxRetsopmi]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I think he's a complete tool, and the feeling is mutual.

He's still annoyed that I was right all along about the future of the game, tbh.

I don't worry about you so the feeling isn't mutual.

Also you aren't right about the game. The end hasn't happened yet.

[Vivacia]

Originally Posted by xxxRetsopmi

The FDIC is terrible. It only covers 250,000 max. So yea it's great for the average man but anyone with sizeable savings is screwed.

ONLY 250,000?!

Where I come from a quarter of a Million dollars is a lot of money! If someone even had that much A) Why is it all in one bank/not invested and B) I really don't care if someone loses whatever pitance is on top of the 250,000. If they have that much to begin with in liquid assets making more should not be a problem.

I really am fed up with the whole, "What about the rich?" routine going on. They don't deserve pity. By and large the super rich are all crooks who don't pay taxes anyway. You want to talk about leeching off society, look to the top not the bottom.
They exist in a world where money can buy you whatever you want. And it's not even a delusion, it's true!
*sigh*
/end rant

@Retsopmi & Ciaran
Stop with the multiple posts! It's confusing as ****. Just use the multiple quote tool instead of the big quote!