Character Structure - Classes and Skills

[Rryst]

What sort of character structure do you want to see? Below I've listed a few different type of sturcuture I've come across before.

Open Ended Skills: Anyone can advance any skill.

Freedom of choice is maximised but little or no direction is given the the player and there are no clear roles for players to fill.


Class Selection with Secondary Skills: Choose a class and then advance skills unique to that class. Secondary skills can be chosen from the entire genric pool excluding only those specialist skills of other classes. eg. Choose a Warrior. Can advance skills in various areas of specialist combat. Further skills could include first aid, diplomacy or electronics. These secondary skills would also be open to the other classes.

Significant freedom of choice. Provides a little direction to the player but primary role is clear.

Class Based Skills: Choose a class and then advance skills only within that class. Likely to be some, but not much, overlap in skills, eg. all classes could train in basic weapons handling.

Little freedom of choice. Direction is set and roles clearly defined.

Multi-Classing: Choose a class and advance skills only within that class. Select a secondary class and advance some skills in that class.

Moderate freedom of choice. Direction not so clear cut but roles clearly defined.

All of the above could still include racial restrictions, skill/level caps or not, and different advancement methods. It's only the underlying structure you need to choose from.

I'm going to open a poll on this in a day or so, but I thought I'd give people the chance to respond first so I can add anything I've missed or alter the explainations if needed before the poll.

Which would you choose, and why?

[firespikez]

i'd choose open ended with race restictions

because its not right if you see an asgard with a spaz 12

[jonus quinn]

Originally Posted by firespikez

i'd choose open ended with race restictions

because its not right if you see an asgard with a spaz 12

Lol But it would be cool u never no its one of the only wepons capable of damaging well slowing down the replicators.

I'd say the same as him though

[stargater]

Personally id love to see the open ended option where there isnt even levels in the game its just how good you are with certain skills. So the whole leveling and progresion aspect of the game would come into play via the construction projects that your guild does, i.e. you want to go out and keep getting new technology or whatever so your reverse engineers can figure it out and your engineers can then build it. I think also in this way you could have newbies be able to play with the more experianced guys.

[Wyrminarrd]

Multi-Classing: Choose a class and advance skills only within that class. Select a secondary class and advance some skills in that class.

This is what I´d most like to see. It gives the game a fixed direction and make players have definitive roles to play.

I´d prefer that there be levels as I find that leveling is one of the most enjoyable part of a MMORPG. Getting your mining skill up by one with repetetive mining just doesn´t thrill me.

[Rryst]

Originally Posted by Wyrminarrd

This is what I´d most like to see. It gives the game a fixed direction and make players have definitive roles to play.

Yeah, I probably should outline the downsides to an open ended system else the vast majority will choose it.

[stargater]

from what I understand there have been a few games that have tried to go with the open ended approach and ended up changing it in beta cause they just couldnt make it work good. I agree that it would be challenging to make work right but I think if you could figure it out it could be very rewarding.

With this said I have a lot of fun with the leveling type games as well and I agree a Multi-classing environment is alot of fun and I wouldnt have a problem with that.

[Rryst]

Ok, I've updated the original post with a little info on what effects the different types are likely to have on choice, direction, and defined role. Tell me if you disagree.

[stargater]

I think an option you missed is a mix between open ended and multi-classing where you choose your primary and secondary and it is easier to level in those areas but if you wanted to you could learn the other skills as well its just alot harder.

With this option your role is then defined because you will obviously want to go the route of least resistance but if there is that one really cool skill the other classes have that you want you could go for it.

[Rryst]

Originally Posted by stargater

from what I understand there have been a few games that have tried to go with the open ended approach and ended up changing it in beta cause they just couldnt make it work good. I agree that it would be challenging to make work right but I think if you could figure it out it could be very rewarding.

I agree. The open eneded approach is difficult to pull off well. Balancing issues alone would be nightmare.

[stargater]

I think what would be cool as well for the more open ended type systems is if you dont use a skill it starts to degrade just like in real life if you dont keep doing something you start to forget about it and you then loose your skill in it.

By doing this it keeps gamers from being a jack of all trades in the endgame.

[Rryst]

Originally Posted by stargater

I think what would be cool as well for the more open ended type systems is if you dont use a skill it starts to degrade just like in real life if you dont keep doing something you start to forget about it and you then loose your skill in it.

A lot of people dislike that sort of mechanic. So I've read. I haven't played a game using it myself, but I think I can understand their frustration. I don't particularly want to be forced into doing something just to retain a skill I've already earned.

Originally Posted by stargater

By doing this it keeps gamers from being a jack of all trades in the endgame.

That's assuming you could be. I'd prefer to have some sort of overall skill cap to prevent people being good at everything. Besides, I'd have though it would unfairly impact the casual gamer who doesn't have the time to put into keeping skills active. And the casual gamer is the new mass market for these games.

[stargater]

I can definately see your point there, it would really stink if a skill you needed but just dont use very often is suddenly not good enough to use when you need it Of course isnt that how it is in real life? but maybe thats one of those game things that you dont want to have to deal with when playing a game. I would think it could be do able where as long as youve used that skill at least once in a certain amount of game time it stays learned but if you dont use it at all it starts to dwindle.

I would need to play it I think to know forsure if I liked this or not. but it would be fun to try I think in an mmo.

[Wyrminarrd]

I would hate it if my skills degraded if I didn´t use them. It would be such a bummer to come back from a vacation and find your character less powerfull then when you left.

The dev´s will almost certainly not include this in the game, it would alienate way to many players and since this is a business they will avoid all things that will anger people and serve no good purpose.

[stargater]

In no way was I suggesting they would degrade when your offline. It could only work if it were done in just actuall game time.

[Wyrminarrd]

Then it might work though it would still bug me to have to go and do task X for X amount of time just to keep up skill X.

[stargater]

I would think the equation would be more like:
if Task X is done within Y amount of game time skill X increases else skill X decreases.

[Rryst]

Originally Posted by stargater

I would think the equation would be more like:
if Task X is done within Y amount of game time skill X increases else skill X decreases.

Ah, If Else statements. Programmer speak

[stargater]

Originally Posted by Rryst

Ah, If Else statements. Programmer speak

hehe, doesnt other people talk that way?

[Rryst]

Ok, I got bored. Poll's up.

Personally, I like the idea of the Class Selction and seconday skills. It gives people a primary role to play, whilst allowing unlimted customisation of their skills outside that role.

[Sordes]

At this point i'm leaning towards open-ended skill based, at least that's what I put on the poll.

But I can also see class system with a choice of what skills you focus on. A tree system has been done in cases like this, where in choices of the tree you follow create differences from character to character even of the same class.

Would prefer basically having the choice to choose whatever I want to work on whenever I feel like it. If they went the open ended route though I would like to see a way to unlearn skills, or sacrifice one skill so you can improve another if you do not like your current skill set.

[Wyrminarrd]

I´m still going with Multi class, having the player choose a main role and a secondary role gives the game focus and makes it easy for other players to identify what other players are.

Every time you give players unlimited options to customize you are also giving them an unlimited ability to gimp them selves. Nothing sucks quite so hard as realizing then your lvl 30 that you should have done things massively different and not being able to do anything about it.

[stargater]

Thought I would classify these different types of play by the games that I have played:

Class Selection with Secondary Skills:
City of Heros

Class Based Skills:
World of Warcraft
Everquest 2

Multi-Classing:
Guild Wars

Ive enjoyed all these games and how theyve done them although COH and GW were more fun in choosing which skills you wanted to go with throughout the game.

[Sordes]

Most probably know this, but as an addendum to Stargater's above post:

Open ended skill system would equate to UO (ultima online) or AC (Asherons Call). WISH, though it never made it out of beta testing, had a nice open skill system as well.

I'd like to see one like AC or WISH personally. And i'd prefer also no skill degredation as stated before. Maybe if it took a long time to lose skill I could see it, but honestly shooting a gun is like riding a bike in a way. I don't think that's something that you would forget how to do.

[Rryst]

Originally Posted by Sordes

Would prefer basically having the choice to choose whatever I want to work on whenever I feel like it. If they went the open ended route though I would like to see a way to unlearn skills, or sacrifice one skill so you can improve another if you do not like your current skill set.

I agree. Even with the other more open structures, having the ability to unlearn skills and learn others in their place is necessary to avoid the problems Wyrminarrd outlined. As strange as unlearning a skill sounds, I think a necessary eveil to improve gameplay and stop people from being trapped witha character they really don't want.

A further point to this. If this unlearning is availlable then I think there needs to be a way of 'banking' a certain number of these skill points so that you can more easily go back to your original skill-set if you find what you've changed to even worse. Something like that would give people the freedom to explore other options without making it a nightmare to get back again. Of course, it goes without saying that it shouldn't be too easy to go back either to prevent people switching out skills to suit short term needs.