Another "Any new news thread"

[Sonfanna]

Originally Posted by aric149

Then he never should have started. Its just another excuse and another broken promise without results. At this point it seems its easier to just ban people that want news than to get that info out.
Lets be real, there aren't many people left to ban.

In principal I agree with what you are saying. However in Khestral's defence it probably wasn't his choice. CME should have appointed someone specifically for the job, its another example of p*ss poor management by CME.

[Feign]

Originally Posted by aric149

Then he never should have started. Its just another excuse and another broken promise without results. At this point it seems its easier to just ban people that want news than to get that info out.
Lets be real, there aren't many people left to ban.

I think you can tell their posting habits compared to others. Sure some people are posting positives, and others not so, but whining, or casting blame, or trolling will not resolve the situation.

If people are truly in fact displeased with what CME is up to, they can leave if they would like. But to post something defamatory is not cool, especially when the topic had been derailed.

I think at some point we as the user base, just have to accept the current predicament - end of story.

People get themselves banned or demerited for whatever defamatory thing they write.

If you guys still want to have a good debate, there is a debate channel on the IRC, as well as a thread on the forum on how to write a good argument.

[Aszrayel]

Daddy iRC makes me nervous, but you are always right

[Sonfanna]

Originally Posted by Feign

I think you can tell their posting habits compared to others. Sure some people are posting positives, and others not so, but whining, or casting blame, or trolling will not resolve the situation.

If people are truly in fact displeased with what CME is up to, they can leave if they would like. But to post something defamatory is not cool, especially when the topic had been derailed.

I think at some point we as the user base, just have to accept the current predicament - end of story.

People get themselves banned or demerited for whatever defamatory thing they write.

If you guys still want to have a good debate, there is a debate channel on the IRC, as well as a thread on the forum on how to write a good argument.

You are absolutely right, there is no cause for these debates to become 'defamatory' as you put it but when it comes to the current situation with CME, people are entitled to complain because we are the ultimate consumer. With the limited understanding we have of the state of the game and CME I would say there are strong grounds for concern. CME is handling the whole situation fairly poorly and, therefore, peoples complaints are not unfounded.

These forums will inevitably be used to convey peoples concerns to CME as it is the one place their opinions might actually be read by CME themselves. While I agree the community should be able to remain civil, in no way do I agree when you say we should accept the current situation. We as the customer can and should expect better from this company!

[Feign]

Originally Posted by Sonfanna

You are absolutely right, there is no cause for these debates to become 'defamatory' as you put it but when it comes to the current situation with CME, people are entitled to complain because we are the ultimate consumer. With the limited understanding we have of the state of the game and CME I would say there are strong grounds for concern. CME is handling the whole situation fairly poorly and, therefore, peoples complaints are not unfounded.

These forums will inevitably be used to convey peoples concerns to CME as it is the one place their opinions might actually be read by CME themselves. While I agree the community should be able to remain civil, in no way do I agree when you say we should accept the current situation. We as the customer can and should expect better from this company!

I should have clarified, I meant 'accept the current predicament' only as it is (if that makes sense). When I say that, I don't mean I am legitimizing the people's general complaint posts, but rather not needing to reiterate what has been said. Also I say that only because we have learned from our mistakes, it would seem. As CME has done some things to alleviate the situation, but, like many would say, not enough. Like that a simple "I agree" is best, or something like that. That is to say we can still discuss it, and potentially the ills of it, but when it gets to the grounds of action... well...

And just to point out to some skeptical users, Sonfanna here has been rightly critical, and yet has not been banned for it. This civility is a great thing to have

Wow... rereading that doesn't help me >.>

[passabel]

Originally Posted by Sonfanna

...
However in Khestral's defence it probably wasn't his choice. CME should have appointed someone specifically for the job, its another example of p*ss poor management by CME.

Personally, I think Khestral is the right person if not the perfect person to do that.

Wait, I have to put on my glasses, to appear somewhat serious.



(A last prayer to the Almighty. Okay, I’m ready.)

Well,
the “Director of Quality Assurence” has to “know” everything related to this game,
because he has to “prove” and “approve” everything.

So, he has to know the info already.

The time might be needed for getting the “approval” for giving us “specific” info, but not for gathering the info itself.
Letting “him” do that shortens the gathering-time!

It might not be the right time to let the information out for some reasons we don’t know.
It always comes back to the right timing.


There is something else I have on my mind. It’s a little aside here but, …
…do you remember the times when you were young and your parents wanted you to do your “chores” while you had some other things to do, and all you said to them was ”soon, in a minute, please?”

How many times could you say that to them before they lost their patience with you?


I’m sure they have their reasons, and we just have to be a little more patient with them.

No hard feelings.

(putting my glasses down again)

[Feign]

Originally Posted by passabel

There is something else I have on my mind. It’s a little aside here but, …
…do you remember the times when you were young and your parents wanted you to do your “chores” while you had some other things to do, and all you said to them was ”soon, in a minute, please?”

How many times could you say that to them before they lost their patience with you?

It would seem that this isn't relegated by age nowadays >.>

*points at WoW vent youtube vid thing*

[passabel]

Originally Posted by Feign

It would seem that this isn't relegated by age nowadays >.>

*points at WoW vent youtube vid thing*

Indeed.

Edit:
But I had something different in my mind. Some kind of role reversal.
The Devs being the kids and we - the community - being the parents in this little “analogy”.

[Sonfanna]

Originally Posted by Feign

I should have clarified, I meant 'accept the current predicament' only as it is (if that makes sense). When I say that, I don't mean I am legitimizing the people's general complaint posts, but rather not needing to reiterate what has been said. Also I say that only because we have learned from our mistakes, it would seem. As CME has done some things to alleviate the situation, but, like many would say, not enough. Like that a simple "I agree" is best, or something like that. That is to say we can still discuss it, and potentially the ills of it, but when it gets to the grounds of action... well...

And just to point out to some skeptical users, Sonfanna here has been rightly critical, and yet has not been banned for it. This civility is a great thing to have

Wow... rereading that doesn't help me >.>

Your point is a good one, and I agree there is no point in going over and over the same points. I do however, feel that it is important for everyone in the community to make there opinions on the situation known (in a civil way of course). Evidently the frustration felt by the community/fans is filtering back to CME and as evidenced by Khesteral's posts, he is trying to fix it. Its much harder for them to resolve our issues if we don't tell them why we are so agrieved.

@ Passabel

I don't disagree with you, in a perfect world he would probably be the best man for this task but as he's stated on the forum something he appears to have little of is time. His time is taken up with other things and as a result its taking too long to get the information flowing.

[Bloody Boots]

I think that getting critical with Khestal is perfectly acceptable. He has made various promises that have been completely broken. There is a difference in saying "Screenshots will be posted every two weeks" as opposed to "Screenshot will be posted when we have time"

The first sentence promises a schedule of results. The second merely promises an attempt. The nice request for what we wanted to hear about in game back on june 8 ended two days later with a promise to get back to us "soon".

Now Soon to me means less than a month later.

In fact in my world "soon" means a week, two at the most.

I tell my boss I'll get her the info she wants "soon", I had better have it by weeks end, if not sooner.

If you promise a dead line, at have the title of "Director of Quality Assurance" you need to meet the deadline.

Sorry, but if this is the example of "Quality" we can expect, I'm out of here and I'll let my squadies know not to expect much from SGW.

Sadly, I'm out the door, not the gate.

[Vilicus]

Originally Posted by Bloody Boots

I think that getting critical with Khestal is perfectly acceptable. He has made various promises that have been completely broken. There is a difference in saying "Screenshots will be posted every two weeks" as opposed to "Screenshot will be posted when we have time"

The first sentence promises a schedule of results. The second merely promises an attempt. The nice request for what we wanted to hear about in game back on june 8 ended two days later with a promise to get back to us "soon".

Now Soon to me means less than a month later.

In fact in my world "soon" means a week, two at the most.

I tell my boss I'll get her the info she wants "soon", I had better have it by weeks end, if not sooner.

If you promise a dead line, at have the title of "Director of Quality Assurance" you need to meet the deadline.

Sorry, but if this is the example of "Quality" we can expect, I'm out of here and I'll let my squadies know not to expect much from SGW.

Sadly, I'm out the door, not the gate.

Unfortunately, one man's definition of soon can be vastly different from another man's. I dont think anyone has given us any actual specific dates of information since before the blackout. My point is... I'd expect information but I wouldn't set my calendar to it. It'll come eventually, just may not be when everyone wants it to. Which lately seems to be that everyone wants information right now.

What if these questions were gathered up for a post-blackout information extravaganza? Maybe they are getting things prep'd so everyone gets a little bit of what they want. Maybe by saying soon, they are saying blackout may be ending soon in which they can start tossing out this information.

[Utopian Hok'taur]

This is probably the quietest I've ever seen the forums in either a very long time or... ever.

[Adrian_Jackson]

Originally Posted by supremeaaron

Also looks like the moderators got tired of renfail and banned him wow.

Sigh. Totalitarian regime time?

[Dawgeth]

Originally Posted by Adrian_Jackson

Sigh. Totalitarian regime time?

YOU DARE DEFY THE MODS?!?!

God **** boards are slow. Only thread in General updated since yesterday is this piece... Crap.

[yellowperil]

"Quality Assurance" this title is about the game, and nothing more, his role does not control the QA of the markerting dept, it does not control the quality of how well the PR, Accounting or any other deptartment of CME works.
He Is the director of GAME Qaulity Assurance, making sure the game meets the requirements, and bugs are fixed in a specific way. Look up ISO 9002 standards, and then apply it to game quality.
Really some people on this forum dont have a frakin clue.

My opinion is Khestral tried to do something that was not in his job description, because unlike many other people at cme, he looks at the forums, sees people with concerns and wants to show that things are better than what people say, he talk to the people above to see if he can do something, they say yes, and decide to do it themselves.

Do you really think the last bunch of screen shots had gone through Khestral, I would hope not, because personally I think they are the worst shots that could possibly be used to 'SHOW OFF' the game.

My guess is Khestral wanted to help out, he spoke to someone, they decided to take it on themselves, when the crap hit the fan (because the images were well below par) and people voiced this, they decided to stop releasing them.

Do you really think that the current CME staff that post on the forums, seriously do not want to share their hard work with us ? I think they have been told from above to hold back, they may have screen shots and game information that will put us in 7th heaven, but they are being told NOT to release it yet. My opinion, but I feel this is the case here.

[Dawgeth]

Originally Posted by yellowperil

Good Stuff Here

Well said, yellow.

The suits upstairs have ultimate control. Its unfortunate that someone tries to help out, does what he can, takes his own time to try and get some information, and the mob of torches and pitchforks blames him for something out of his control.

Course, this is the internet.. I just wish they'd all RAEG quit and stop coming here.

[Sonfanna]

On the flipside, Khestral stuck his neck out, promised us more information and we have been a little disappointed by the results. His intentions were good, but he was bound to have a fair amount of criticism aimed at him when his information didn't materialise.

[yellowperil]

Originally Posted by Sonfanna

On the flipside, Khestral stuck his neck out, promised us more information and we have been a little disappointed by the results. His intentions were good, but he was bound to have a fair amount of criticism aimed at him when his information didn't materialise.

Say you approach you boss with an idea, and he likes it, your given the go ahead, 2 weeks later,you contact the corresponding departments with the go ahead to release material (since you cannot do it, it has to go through the right channels), they release the info, without your knowledge the boss tell that dept to stop as the feedback isn't what he expected. 2 weeks later you find out its been canned, and look into it, your told its been canned by the boss, and discuss this no further internally or externally.

Whose fault is it, yours? Should you be roasted for trying to do something, that was canceled by someone else and canned completely.

I would suggest everyone look at the big picture here, and appreciate the work thats being done here. And if you want to point finger, check and think were you should be pointing them, before making posts.

Blaming someone for trying to do something, then it getting canned because its out of his control, man that's just low, would you prefer these people just didn't bother like everyone else? I can understand now why the majority of devs and cme staff just dont bother coming into the forums anymore.

[Sonfanna]

Originally Posted by yellowperil

Say you approach you boss with an idea, and he likes it, your given the go ahead, 2 weeks later,you contact the corresponding departments with the go ahead to release material (since you cannot do it, it has to go through the right channels), they release the info, without your knowledge the boss tell that dept to stop as the feedback isn't what he expected. 2 weeks later you find out its been canned, and look into it, your told its been canned by the boss, and discuss this no further internally or externally.

Whose fault is it, yours? Should you be roasted for trying to do something, that was canceled by someone else and canned completely.

I would suggest everyone look at the big picture here, and appreciate the work thats being done here. And if you want to point finger, check and think were you should be pointing them, before making posts.

Blaming someone for trying to do something, then it getting canned because its out of his control, man that's just low, would you prefer these people just didn't bother like everyone else? I can understand now why the majority of devs and cme staff just dont bother coming into the forums anymore.

You just generated a completely fictional scenario then you assumed Khestral's release of info was 'canned' and accused me of blaming him for this fictional course of events. I don't blame Khesteral for the wider failings of CME, I just think its unfortunate that he offered himself up as a point of contact on this forum, promising a greater release of info almost 4 weeks ago, and to this date has given us nothing.

As far as we know he was told or took it upon himself to get the community more information. So far he has failed in that promise and for that reason alone, he was bound to receive criticism.

[passabel]

Originally Posted by yellowperil

Say you approach you boss with an idea, and he likes it, your given the go ahead, 2 weeks later,you contact the corresponding departments with the go ahead to release material (since you cannot do it, it has to go through the right channels), they release the info, without your knowledge the boss tell that dept to stop as the feedback isn't what he expected. 2 weeks later you find out its been canned, and look into it, your told its been canned by the boss, and discuss this no further internally or externally.

Whose fault is it, yours? Should you be roasted for trying to do something, that was canceled by someone else and canned completely.

I would suggest everyone look at the big picture here, and appreciate the work thats being done here. And if you want to point finger, check and think were you should be pointing them, before making posts.

Blaming someone for trying to do something, then it getting canned because its out of his control, man that's just low, would you prefer these people just didn't bother like everyone else? I can understand now why the majority of devs and cme staff just dont bother coming into the forums anymore.

Well, in your “story“ the involved persons aren’t communicating with each other in a mature way. (“internally or externally”)
Therefore everything gets locked up and nobody has the guts to clear this misunderstanding up.
There are a lot of assumptions in this story.

If I got your story right, I think this "imaginary" person deserves being roasted for not having the guts to clear this mess up!

I’m not sure if this can be “generalised” nor converted into our situation.

No hard feelings.


Edit:
@ Utopian Hok'taur

“The quietes ah…darkest hour of the night is just before the dawn”
"Who is going to be our dark knight in this hour?"
(someone is nodding at a guy/moderator, who does seem to “look like” Christian Bale)

[yellowperil]

for those replying to my thread, I am bringing up a possible fictional scenario since we don't know what is happening, I said this is what I thought could be the case, this is my opinion.

As to pointing the finger at any individual, I am not, I am making a generalization, in the sense of a lot of people feel this is the case, I can say pretty honestly that with discussions inside, outside and other forums, this is the feeling I get in a general sense.

I am not pointing the finger at anyone here, if you feel its pointed at you then you are mistaken. All I did was raise some opinions. You can agree or disagree that's your prerogative.

[passabel]

Dear yellowperil,

This generalization bases on what you “think“ what other people are “feeling”.
Well, feelings are good , but…what about facts? Well...never mind.

You have a right to have your own opinion, but others do have this same right.

My advice is (and it’s on the house): Beware of generalizations (100% conclusions).
It needs one, only one different case - within a universe of infinite possibilities – to render this generalization worthless.

And don't forget, they aim at “all people” and so they can do a lot of “collateral damage”, even if it’s unintentional.

Again, no hard feelings.

[SnoWolfe]

Ok will try to make this short and not overdone.

I *am* frustrated with the delay, and the slow release of info.

BUT: there is no reason in my mind, period, to get upset with *any* of the developers. They are not in "control" of when they are allowed to release new screenies, or when the next beta comes to fruition.

And if *any* of the nastimours (nasty rumors) are true and they actually lost some of their core developers - I can absolutely understand the delay.

WHY: If you are a coder, think of it a bit. You are a new guy walking in right behind someone who has left, into this project. Now you may have worked with the engine before and been programming for 20 years, and know 10 different languages. And you may be one of the best in your field. But have you ever just been able to jump right in, and pick right up where your predecessor (sp?) left off? Every programmer has dang near a "signature" in the way they write. And if the company goes by "standards"... well those *still* aren't standard. You have to learn all of the internal libraries and classes and functions and what they do, make changes as you are learning the "new" system when you find errors others might have made, or you happen to know of better ways to do it. (Example: VB type - VB has a function that pops a message box on the screen... MsgBox - they decided to use some third party module that overrides that and is now RC_MsgBox - that does nothing to extend it. Then they created their own module that extends RC_MsgBox but doesnt called TS_MsgBox - now for some of the old time coders - what is going through your mind - Mine - I'm thinking wtf - more and more and more processor cycles to do something that is already built into VB anyway??!!) Gonna stop on the example because that really should be a whole nother topic. Point was I have *never* seen that genius programming expert that can just walk in and start hitting the ground running right where the last person left off. (And no - this does not mean I know anything for a fact about CME - this is based off previous rumors)

Anyway back to *cough* short point. All the CME folks posting I'm happy about. The fact the site is still up I'm happy about. The delay I'm not. But things are how they are. Until they make an announcement and shut the site down, I still have a ray of hope that we will see this come about. You should to! How does it help talking bad about devs? I mean think about this. This is like saying someone in a grocery store sucks because the prices are too high. They have no decision over the dang prices. They cant sell it to you cheaper! So why do *they* suck? Because they work there?!

I understand venting - vent - but please dont just be kicking the devs around - they make it - they dont control it. (They may have votes or something - but they cant just say "I'm gonna start beta, or I'm gonna release such and such because the community needs it") Higher ups and whats going on there - I feel aggrivated with. But I also have not a single clue as to what is happening behind the scenes with CME right now. For all I know they're legal counsel could be telling them not to releaase *any* information on the game or development progress as they are (might be - again no idea) in talks with another vc group or single investor. Heck - maybe it isnt even the higher ups - maybe the current investors are putting the kybosh on release of information. But no matter what - dont smack around the devs verbally or insinuate anything about them. I'm sure they've told senior staff in meetings that the community is a bit jumpy. I'm sure they *want* to tell us anything and everything they could about the behind the scenes state of the game. But until they make an announcement that its getting bought out by SOE or shutting their doors - hold on to that ray of hope. They're still here. CME is still around. Hurry up and wait.

EDIT: just saw another message, sorta (and more succintly) knocking around the same point. I have an opinion (having spoke with quite a few people here) that they have been around for a long time. They've not only seen behind the scenes in development, they've actually been some of the higher ups actually IN the behind the scenes. There is just a lot more going on that you guys can't realize unless you have actually been through it first or second hand irl.

[Aszrayel]

Originally Posted by SnoWolfe

WHY: If you are a coder, think of it a bit. You are a new guy walking in right behind someone who has left, into this project. Now you may have worked with the engine before and been programming for 20 years, and know 10 different languages. And you may be one of the best in your field. But have you ever just been able to jump right in, and pick right up where your predecessor (sp?) left off? Every programmer has dang near a "signature" in the way they write. And if the company goes by "standards"... well those *still* aren't standard. You have to learn all of the internal libraries and classes and functions and what they do, make changes as you are learning the "new" system when you find errors others might have made, or you happen to know of better ways to do it. (Example: VB type - VB has a function that pops a message box on the screen... MsgBox - they decided to use some third party module that overrides that and is now RC_MsgBox - that does nothing to extend it. Then they created their own module that extends RC_MsgBox but doesnt called TS_MsgBox - now for some of the old time coders - what is going through your mind - Mine - I'm thinking wtf - more and more and more processor cycles to do something that is already built into VB anyway??!!) Gonna stop on the example because that really should be a whole nother topic. Point was I have *never* seen that genius programming expert that can just walk in and start hitting the ground running right where the last person left off. (And no - this does not mean I know anything for a fact about CME - this is based off previous rumors)

Dude, now that is the most accurate statement from a programmer I have ever seen, I salute you /salute.

[dec0y]

Originally Posted by passabel

Edit:
@ Utopian Hok'taur

“The quietes ah…darkest hour of the night is just before the dawn”
"Who is going to be our dark knight in this hour?"
(someone is nodding at a guy/moderator, who does seem to “look like” Christian Bale)

I think you mean one who use to be a mod who sounds like Christian Slater (waves at BC) lol